Today’s episode of the Punk CX podcast features Sara Richter, CMO at SAP Emarsys, and Fred Reichheld, Creator of the Net Promoter System®, Bain Fellow, and loyalty visionary. Sara and Fred join me on the podcast to talk about how the organisations that win treat NPS as a management system rather than a one-off score, the state of loyalty, including the impact that AI is having on loyalty, the idea of Earned Growth Rate that was introduced in Net Promoter 3.0 and what brands should be focusing on to build and grow their loyal customer base.

This interview follows on from my recent interview – Accessibility drives customer acquisition – Interview with Joel Kellhofer of SignWow – and is number 572 in the series of interviews with authors and business leaders who are doing great things, providing valuable insights, helping businesses innovate and delivering great service and experience to both their customers and their employees.

Here are the highlights of my chat with Sara and Fred:

• Check out the research Sara mentioned:
  • SAP Emarsys’ B2B Buyer Loyalty Index 2025, Global
  • SAP Emarsys’ Customer Loyalty Index 2025, Global Edition
  • SAP Emarsys’ 2025 AI in Retail – UK
• Loyalty is the Core Economic Engine: Recognise customer loyalty not as a program or a marketing cost centre, but as the single most central driver of a business’s financial success and profitable growth.
• The “Gaining/Losing Share” Mindset: Treat every customer interaction—across all people, systems, and channels—as a moment where you are either gaining share (by delivering value they would miss) or losing share (by diminishing your brand’s reputation).
• Move Beyond the Score: The traditional survey-based Net Promoter Score (NPS) has become less reliable. The focus must shift from chasing the score to treating the Net Promoter System (NPS 3.0) as a management philosophy centred on enriching customers’ lives.
• Adopt the Earned Growth Rate (EGR): Implement EGR as the new loyalty metric to provide a causal analysis of growth. It measures two real cash-flow consequences: “back for more” (repurchase) and “bring your friends” (referrals).
• Identify Your Profitable Core: A small percentage of new customers (e.g., an average of 20%) who are referred by friends typically generate the vast majority (e.g., 70-80%) of the cohort’s profitable growth. These customers are the brand’s “magnetic core.”
• Reward the Right Results: Stop rewarding new revenue indiscriminately. The reward system must be restructured to track and incentivise referrals, which are the purest signal of customer delight and a sustainable growth engine.
• Loyalty Bonds are Fragile: Acknowledge that “true loyalty” is stalling in established markets (like the UK), and the bonds consumers form with brands are becoming more complex and ephemeral.
• Master “Trend Loyalty”: A new, emerging sixth type of loyalty, heavily driven by Gen Z, is focused on the product and social virality, rather than the brand itself. Brands must find ways to be present in the viral moment and transition that transactional interaction into a longer-term customer journey.
• B2B and B2C Strategies Converge: The emotional logic driving consumer loyalty is now shaping enterprise procurement. B2B “Adaptive Loyalty,” which rewards suppliers that innovate and stay relevant, directly mirrors consumer trend loyalty.
• Focus on Memorable Experiences: Move away from “tired” and “lousy” points-based loyalty programs. The most effective investments are in creating unique, personalised, and memorable brand experiences.
• AI as a Scaling Tool, Not a Replacement: Utilise AI to scale data, automate processes, and achieve real-time, one-to-one personalisation across a plethora of channels. Critically, AI must serve to enhance, not replace, human interaction.
• The Future is Referral Tracking: The most valuable new tool for business will be one that practically and easily helps a CEO or head of finance identify exactly who is referring whom and what the true economics of that process are.
• Sara’s best advice: Make customer loyalty your strategic compass within your organisation.
• Fred’s best advice: Learn who your true promoters are, not just the nines and tens, but the people who are bringing in at least one new customer through referral, and develop deep one-on-one relationships with them to understand how to grow and strengthen their magnetic pull.
• Fred’s Punk CX brand: Costco
• Sara’s Punk CX brand: Moulton Brown

About Sara

Sara Richter, is the CMO at SAP Emarsys, and brings 20 years of marketing experience to her role as CMO at SAP Emarsys, a leading global marketing team focused on delivering exceptional AI-driven customer experiences. Passionate about building revenue-oriented marketing teams that act as a trusted partner to commercial organisations, Sara creates dynamic, differentiated messaging and generates revenue opportunities that high performing, growing businesses need to achieve objectives and exceed expectations.

Feel free to connect with Sara on LinkedIn here.

About Fred

Fred Reichheld is a globally renowned business strategist and the creator of the Net Promoter System®, the gold standard for measuring customer loyalty and advocacy. As the founder of Bain Company’s Loyalty Practice, Fred has helped lead organisations drive sustainable growth by putting customers and employees at the heart of their strategy.

A Bain Fellow and senior advisory partner, Fred has spent over four decades advising executives across industries on how to build enduring relationships that fuel business success. His groundbreaking work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, and The Economist. Fred is the author of several best-selling books, including The Loyalty Effect, Loyalty Rules!, The Ultimate Question 2.0, and Winning on Purpose. His latest work continues to shape how companies think about customer-centricity and ethical business growth.

Fred holds a BA and MBA from Harvard University and is a sought-after keynote speaker at global business forums.

Say Hi to Bain & Co on X and Instagram @bainandcompany and @bainandcompany, respectively, and feel free to connect with Fred on LinkedIn here.

Credit: Photo by Andrew Seaman on Unsplash